Path: ultra.sonic.net!jupiter.dnai.com!vncnews!HSNX!ns1.walltech.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!158.43.192.17!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!news-peer!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!aristos.demon.co.uk!sam From: Sam Dodsworth Newsgroups: alt.books.inklings,alt.books.cs-lewis,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Kipling & Mithraism (was Inklings Discussion) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:50:18 +0100 Organization: Annexia Free Press Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <33C4C6DD.1773@cant.ac.uk> <868983129.8085@dejanews.com> <33CE8726.7D6B@unity.ncsu.edu> <5qsvqk$g9g@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <5quh3l$fuh@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu> <5qulf2$mc9@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <33D3F5B2.33BC@unity.ncsu.edu> <33D7D418.55F5@unity.ncsu.edu> <33D93C8B.2312@unity.ncsu.edu> <33DD8CFA.3C93@unity.ncsu.edu> <33DF470A.336@gamewood.net> <33DFE225.42EE@unity.ncsu.edu> <33E2F398.1CF3@dragontree.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: aristos.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: aristos.demon.co.uk [158.152.230.146] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.01 <7c0azr3XvpMr4dZzpifF$I+pPf> Lines: 46 Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.books.inklings:112 alt.books.cs-lewis:8448 rec.arts.books.tolkien:32333 In article <33E2F398.1CF3@dragontree.com>, Mary Ezzell writes >Sam Dodsworth wrote: >> >> Well, the Tauricide certainly involves blood, but AFAIK we >> simply don't know anything substantial about the actual rites of >> Mithraism. > > >Kipling seemed to think he did, and was also really into the thing of the >battles >of WWI having been won on the playing fields of Marathon. (I've got a Kingsley >quote on this too somewhere.) > >Kipling did a story or two on Mithraism. I'm pretty sure it was in /Puck of >Pook's >Hill/ or /Rewards and Fairies/. "A Centurion of the Ninth" from "Puck of Pook's Hill". It's one of my favorite Kipling stories, but unfortunately it's also quite deliberately littered with anachronisms and outright invention - Kipling had other things than historical accuracy in mind when he wrote the book. I also don't remember anything substantial about Mithraism, beyond a few symbols and recognition-signs that Kipling borrowed from Freemasonry. (Kipling was fond of the idea that Freemasonry was a genuinely ancient tradition, but I suspect him - as in "The Man Who Would Be King" - of choosing the more sensational view for the sake of a good story.) Which leaves us where we began: Mithraism, like the Mysteries of Eleusis or Ancient Druidism, is a godsend for crackpots because, lacking evidence, we can make whatever assertions we like about what was "probably" involved. Makes for terriffic novels and lousy history. > >(Dunno his source, see "The Finest Story in the World", good New-Ager as he >was.... Freemasonry, but he was (probably :-)) ascribing Masonic rituals to Mithraism and not vice-versa. Which is not to say that you don't have a point when you call Kipling a New-Ager: check out his vision of the future of religion in "With the Night Mail". Sam Dodsworth (sam@aristos.demon.co.uk) "I rather like the sex shop. What makes it more sexist than, say, the toy shop?" - Wildcat