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Subject:      Re: When God orders cruelty AKA justice (a blasphemous title? ;-)
From:         Andrew Rilstone <blank@blank.blank>
Date:         1997/11/20
Message-ID:   <oj8B7CABYMd0EwGO@aslan.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups:   alt.books.cs-lewis
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>>Russel Trojan <metanoi1@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article 
>>> I don't think that this answers the question that was asked in any
>>> meaningful manner.

>>> Either way, I cannot imagine how a baby fussing in public as a result of
>>an
>>> uncomfortable diaper can be considered sinful. 

It depends what you mean by "sinful" doesn't it? It might be that if the
human race were unfallen, no baby would ever cry, or throw a tantrum. In
that case, it would be true to say "The baby's tantrum is a result of
its sin"; which might be the same say saying "The baby's crying is
sinful." 

When we say "All have sinned" I think we can mean two different things:

"We are all seperated from God; we all fall short of God's glory." 
"We have all done bad things."

We can get into a muddle if don't distinguish sense #1 from sense #2: a
baby is a sinner (seperate from God, short of God's glory, needing to be
redeemed) but it may not have done any bad things.

Augustine says that if, as an adult, he screamed every time he was
hungry, everyone would laugh at him an remonstrate with him. If it is
wrong for an adult, it's wrong for a baby. We don't scold the baby
because the baby can't understand. As soon as it is old enough to
understand, we scold it. "We root out these faults and discard them as
we grow up, and this is proof enough that they are faults." He also says
that it is common knowledge that a tiny child can be envious--(screaming
or turning pale when his brother is getting more attention) and that
this shows that babies are not "innocent".

There is that terrible Christmas hymn we still make children sing: "The
cattle are lowing, the baby awakes/But little Lord Jesus, no crying he
makes." This is obviously based on the assumption that a crying baby is
sinnig, and that Jesus, who was without sin, never cried. A marginally
better hymn takes the opposite view -- "he was little, weak and
helpless/tears and smiles like us he knew." But it goes on to say
"Christian children all must be/mild, obedient, good as He." Apart from
the dubious salvation-by-works ethic, it seems to be based on the belief
that if Jesus was without sin, then he was never a naughty child. But do
we know this to be true? 

That is, do we know that all the mischief which children get up to comes
from their sinful nature? Isn't it possible that an sinless nine year
old, if such a thing is imaginable, would still exasperate its parents
from time to time. (Well, it wouldn't, because the unfallen parents
would be infinitley patient, but you see what I'm saying) 

Interestingly, the apocryphal gospel of Thomas pictures Jesus as an
incredibly mischevious child, almost, like the child Krishna, a
trickster. And there are representations in medieval art of the Virgin
Mary chastising Christ, which suggests that Perfect Children can get
into trouble with Perfect Parents.

I'm sorry, what was the question again? 
-- 
Andrew Rilstone                                         SPAM@aslan.demon.co.uk  
  human correspondents please change word "SPAM" to "ANDREW"
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